camrogers: (Default)
camrogers ([personal profile] camrogers) wrote2009-12-15 05:29 pm

Dad

I've been rethinking my stance on fatherhood.

For the last few weeks I've been sleeping like an infant... better than an infant; I'm not waking every four hours to throw up and scream for boob.

I've been sleeping well, for the first time in ten years I'm totally game to get back to doing standup (and really don't have the time), and I've been thinking about whether or not I want to become a dad.

My stance was always this: I can't afford a cat. To become a father to please myself, and bring a child into the world at a point when I can't make a serious attempt at both caring for it and making the most of the first seven formative years... it's just irresponsible and selfish. It's not right. Couple that with things like the world being overpopulated, the figures on the resources it takes for a person to live a normal life plus it costs more than a million dollars to raise a child to 18... it was never something I could seriously consider. And there's also the fear that my life as I know it would cease to be. ie. my career would wither and die. But I do think I'd make a good father if I was capable of being financially stable.

The thing is, so many kids are being born into loveless families just so Kevin Rudd will buy mum and dad a flatscreen, that there's a need for families that raise their kids with love and humour and understanding. In that sense it's ecologically and socially moral, I think. Kids raised to have faith and confidence in themselves are more likely to be good for this world than bad, even if only as role models or bringing something positive into the lives of others, who then go on to be less damaging... in whatever way you care to consider. So there's that.

The other thing is, I first came to Melbourne on the wave of something laughably bad that went down in Brisbane in 1996. I thought I'd dealt with it pretty well, but it's the nature of these things to not die so much as fade into the background, and then throw clogs in the works while you're out to lunch. I was pretty good at lying to myself about a whole range of things, basically. The biggest being about my ability to write my own life. If I want my career to work, it will. It's taken twelve years to find that particular lever. If I can make it work, I can have money. If I can have money, I can be a father. I know it doesn't take cash to be a good dad, the main requirement is being there and being more mature than the human being you just created.

The third criteria, which I haven't mentioned, is being in love with someone who could be a good mother and is a great friend. I have the advantage of time and being male, but if this is going to happen it'd be best if I didn't wait so long that when I attend this kid's graduation I'm more focused on the pudding.

So it's a thing. I don't know if it'll ever happen, but oddly it was like a weight lifting when I realised this was how I felt about it now, and that had changed because I've changed. It feels like that scene in the last episode of Due South where the ghost of the main character's dad is in his cabin, gets his hat, walks to the door, and all four walls fall away revealing a beautiful, frozen landscape and he just walks out into it. Possibilities, endings and beginnings. I dunno. Stuff. Feels important, I guess.

[identity profile] greylock.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 06:41 am (UTC)(link)
Whilst I wouldn't try to talk you out of it (let's face it, you're up there in age like I am, almost out of the picture already) would you feel comfortable bringing a kid into this world?

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 06:44 am (UTC)(link)
I can't tell what the future holds. I don't think I'd want to raise them here though.

[identity profile] greylock.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 06:48 am (UTC)(link)
I don't think I'd want to raise them here though.

Depends how far the sea level rises, I suppose.
I suppose the imminent threat of environmental catastrophe is no different to the cold war, or the rise of nazis , or the Spanish Flu, or WW1, or a comet falling into the world, or 2012. Whatever.

Aside from the whole not wanting to have kids thing, that to me is a big stumbling block. I'm not even sure I want to live in the future, much less offspring.

(Thankfully, there are enough kids around me that I'm not getting the near-40s cluckiness).

That said, we do need smart people to breed. All the stupid people are breeding.

Children are hope

[identity profile] hestia.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 08:32 am (UTC)(link)
Parenting is still possible during an apocalypse (zombie or otherwise) and if Buffy taught us anything she taught us that apocalypses are many and the outcome in never a given.

You just have to get creative about it and as a writer I'm sure you'll take to it easily. Take some pointers from movies from Kick Ass:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid429035470?bctid=57103818001


btw, don't go to Finland. I'll miss you.

Re: Children are hope

[identity profile] hestia.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 08:44 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry, I meant for Cameron not to go to Finland. You can go to Finland if you want. :P

Re: Children are hope

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 09:58 am (UTC)(link)
There's no way I'm not doing this. :)

Re: Children are hope

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 09:56 am (UTC)(link)
That clip is brilliant. Seen other clips for that flick. Wasnt sure what to make of it. Didnt know Cage was in it. Prefer when he does this sort of thing. He's not meant for serious roles.

Re: Children are hope

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 09:57 am (UTC)(link)
btw, don't go to Finland. I'll miss you.

You've probably spent an hour with me over the last six years. :P Being in Finland is probably gonna be the same as me being in Brunswick.

Re: Children are hope

[identity profile] hestia.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 03:46 pm (UTC)(link)
And whose fault's that?

Re: Children are hope

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 10:57 pm (UTC)(link)
H*ydn's.

Get him!




Actually neither of us really pushed for it.

Re: Children are hope

[identity profile] hestia.livejournal.com 2009-12-16 01:20 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm. My recollection is quite different.

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 09:10 am (UTC)(link)
Depends how far the sea level rises, I suppose.

It's more to do with lack of opportunity, perspective, respect for various things that I consider critical, challenges, equality, things like that.

[identity profile] fluffworld.livejournal.com 2009-12-16 12:33 am (UTC)(link)
You know, I’m sure my folks worried about the collapse of society when they were having me and my sister (Ireland was ridiculously economically depressed, corrupt as fuck and in a civil war and my mother was still having nightmares about how the Bay of Pigs could have gone). And I think I’m living in the future and it’s AWESOME. We have more free time, more available information, more books, more movies, more freedom and more ideas than ever before. My kids – if I have them, time, biology and other factors depending – could live in a world where we can cure most illnesses, speak to people all over the planet easily, make bionic limbs and walk in space. How amazing is that?

You’ve just been speaking about how modernity makes your Finland conversations a cinch. The world is not that fucked. People can, if the right choices are made, make this planet a decent place to inhabit for everyone. I reckon a parent’s job is to equip a kid to adapt to the world, not have the world perfect for them. You can insert similarities to the argument for the Australian net filter here – you don’t stifle to protect something.

I love living in the future. It’s a dangerous and complicated place, but I have more free time and information than ANY generation that came before me. My main regret is that I was born, I reckon, 40 years too early to be part of the generation who will travel sub orbitally and into space.

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-16 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
You're preaching to the choir. :) I know. All I'm saying is that I'm reconsidering raising a kid in Australia because they'd have more stimuli, opportunities, culture and experience living in or closer to Europe. I don't think I want to raise my kids on an island. I speak from experience: being in the middle of the ocean can be frustrating when you really want to see and do things.

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-16 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
(And I'm still not certain I want to be a parent, mind.)

[identity profile] mireille21.livejournal.com 2009-12-16 01:30 am (UTC)(link)
Ditto. At the risk of sounding egotistical, part of the reason I wanted to have children was that I did not want to live in a future being populated and determined *only* by so many ofthe idiots around me. Yes, we need more smart people to breed and we need to bring them up well - which is a *huge* challenge.

I also think you have to be optimistic by nature to have children. You have to believe that the problems we face in teh world today are *not* insurmountable and that both you and your children will play an active part in making the world better.

[identity profile] hestia.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 06:51 am (UTC)(link)
I'm unsure how much I can say here but I do remember you telling me about the Brisbane drama and I was thoroughly shocked at the behaviour you described. Now I study weird ass behaviour like that, and if I remember the story, I'm pretty sure the main asshole male was definitely personality disordered, likely a psychopath and probably manic at the time as well.

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 06:55 am (UTC)(link)
No idea, and kind of academic. Fact is if it hadn't happened I'd still be living in Brisbane, and most likely holding down a crap job to support a fairly unpleasant partner. Because it happened I came to Melbourne, got published, etc etc etc.

Like most things it comes down to how you play the hand you're dealt. I could have handled that episode a lot more competently, but at least I handled it in some fashion, and I learned a lot. Which sounds a lot like water-headed optimism, but it is actually true.

[identity profile] hestia.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 07:26 am (UTC)(link)
It was certainly a long time ago and you definitely made the right move to get out of there. While I don't remember a lot about that girl, or rather what you told me of her, I end up feeling sorry for her. She was obviously deeply stuck in severe abuse cycles to the point where she couldn't tell the good guys from the bad guys any more. That can happen to anybody. Did you ever hear what happened to her?

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 07:37 am (UTC)(link)
Went through a couple more relationships, a couple more fiancees, finally got married, had a kid.

[identity profile] hestia.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 07:54 am (UTC)(link)
I hope for her and her kid that she's safe now.

I think our little Gen-X pocket of Australia has had some unrealistic ideas about how resilient we could expect ourselves to be in the face of emotional terrorism and with so much of the economic odds stacked against us, esp after growing up with expectations of the opposite.

[identity profile] blithespirit.livejournal.com 2009-12-15 07:44 am (UTC)(link)
*grin*
I'm glad things are working out for you.

[identity profile] severina-242.livejournal.com 2009-12-16 12:00 am (UTC)(link)
I'm of the age, and in a relationship where a kid is a serious possibility. I means sacrifices for me (goodbye art and further uni) merely because a. mike has epilepsy - his main trigger is broken sleep - luckily I'm good at sleep dep after a good ten years of on/off insomnia and b. as a male in Australia, Mike still has superior earning power despite us being at the same level of seniority in the same industry doing the exact same job.

Luckily my mother is now, finally retiring after working 6 days a week for most of her life, and is wildly enthusiastic about being a baby sitter so I can get back to work quicker

That said, Australia is not the place I would choose for raising a child for so many reasons. I could maybe get my Polish passport and gain access to EU countries (Ireland's artists and writers don't pay tax, and it's the ancestral home for me) but there is no guarantee that I could get my passport. Not speaking Polish is really against me.

Mike and I have really started to protest as much as we can against all the shitty things that the government is doing, because we would like to have a child, and because after all those years of Howard, having a government come in and think that we were broken by Howard, so therefore they can do whatever the fuck they like is galling to say the least. We're both fucking furious and making waves whenever we're able.

Dunno what will be the outcome - I'm ready to have a child, and feel quite excited about the possibility, but....... Australia....

It's really not for everyone though, and there should be no pressure on anyone to pop one out.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your Finland adventures :-)

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-16 12:17 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I never thought I'd have a problem with a future in my own country but I look at the calm, progressive, mature governments of a few other nations and suddenly staying here seems like poor thinking. I like it here, but I've never felt that it was ever really on the same wavelength with me. At all. And lately it just feels more and more like its drifting back into the Fifties and everyone over 40 is okay with that. Protect the rights that apply to you, screw the rest.

I'll be meeting my local member, if they can ever decide who that is and when they're in.

RE Finland - fingers crossed. We're doing everything right, but I'll count my chickens once I'm booked and sorted. It'll work out.

[identity profile] belegdel.livejournal.com 2009-12-17 05:11 am (UTC)(link)
I'll preface the following by pointing out I'm flat-out never having children. I have quite a bias in that direction. I'm too selfish to have children, I resent the responsibility of keeping even a plant and I hate humanity with a passion. I feel no urge to perpetuate the species.

But here's my take of a couple of parenting things that really get my goat:

I've met far, FAR too many parents who didn't want to be. If you want to have a kid and plan for it - that's off to a much better start than most.

I'm old fashioned enough to think >1 role models are important. They don't have to be married but they have to be committed to the long haul. None of this token "this is Mary she's your female role model for this month" stuff. Otherwise the kid(s) are working off a single long-term sample of humanity and seriously gimped in their experience of just how varied people can be in more than just superficial interactions.

Lastly, it's not a temporary job. It ends when you or the kid kark it (hopefully, you first). The attitude of "raise 'em until 16 then you get your life back" is misguided.

Yeah, I really could go on. But won't. Probably shouldn't have said what I have ;)

[identity profile] patchworkkid.livejournal.com 2009-12-17 06:19 am (UTC)(link)
Not at all. It sums up my reasons for being childless so far pretty well. I'm just considering the alternative with all of that responsible stuff in mind.

[identity profile] drwally.livejournal.com 2009-12-18 12:06 am (UTC)(link)
I was gonna say something about this a while back - mainly that it is inexplicable to me, to understand why someone would elect to get a vasectomy, because you don't know your future self, or how pissed he could get at your decision when you could very well come to a stage where you'll change your mind.

I know you explained your perspective from some badass shit that went down... but yeah. You really never know.